Not surprisingly, a substantial portion of Monday’s meeting was comprised of continued discussions about Orangeville policing. At the Police Services Board Meeting on April 18th, 2017, a consultant hired by the Police Association did a presentation to the Board that discredited the Treasurer’s financial analysis. This presentation was a sore spot for a few Council members and they spoke up on Monday about their concerns. Councillor Gail Campbell, who is a member of the Police Services Board expressed her disappointment that this presentation was done calling it “antagonistic and personally disrespectful to our Treasurer”. She also expressed concern that the Treasurer was not given the opportunity to respond to the allegations and was not even invited to participate in the meeting. She also made it clear that the Board was not made aware of the contents of this delegation and its contents prior to that Board meeting. In Councillor Campbell’s opinion, this presentation should have been made to the governing body of Council and NOT to the Police Services Board. Her opinion is that the presentation was “marred and diminished” by an attack on a senior staff member of the Town of Orangeville.
Sergeant Fry, President of the Orangeville Police Association, spoke up in defence of the consultant’s credentials and stated that the Police Association was and is concerned by the confusion that surrounds the OPP costing in the community and therefore had requested that the matter be reviewed by a subject matter expert to review the long-term implications. Sergeant Fry also stated that he hopes that Council will consider getting an independent consultant to review the costs before making a final decision on the matter at hand.
Councillor Sylvia Bradley spoke about her concerns from the presentation as well. She was concerned about his credentials as a retired police officer. She stated that she found it “disgusting” that they hired someone to discredit the Treasurer and if they had wanted to hire someone, they should have hired someone who was “competent”. Councillor Bradley also said that “They {the police} are there to serve and protect the public, the people of Orangeville. They’re not there to serve and protect their self-interests and I’m seeing that this is what’s happening here.” Councillor Bradley went on to say that a number of officers are afraid to speak out publicly to voice their concerns and desires for fear of reprisal. “I certainly hope that I will not be getting special attention now because I have spoken out.” Councillor Bradley said. She then stated that she feels that the Union now owes an apology to the Treasurer.
BDO was next up on the agenda to do their presentation which was basically confirming the accuracy of the Treasurer’s analysis based on the numbers he had available to him. One key point they did add was that they they would like to speak to OPP as they have some questions to ask.
So, where do we go from here? The public meeting is being held Thursday, April 27th from 7-9:30pm at ODSS in the cafeteria. Representatives from both OPS and OPP will be there to answer any of your questions. If you are unable to attend, you can tune in live on Rogers TV (Channel 63) and please don’t forget that you can still send you questions or comments to oppcosting@orangeville.ca and to each member of Council individually at the email addresses below:
- jwilliams@orangeville.ca
- wmaycock@orangeville.ca
- swilson@orangeville.ca
- sbradley@orangeville.ca
- gcampbell@orangeville.ca
- dkidd@orangeville.ca
- ngaristo@orangeville.ca
- sgreatrix@orangeville.ca (Town Clerk)
Please have your voices heard! Decision time is coming soon and our community is very divided on the topic.
Urban Slide
Did you have a chance to try out the Urban Slide at last years’ Founders Day? What were your thoughts? The plan this year was to pair the Urban Slide up with a beer garden and Caribbean Festival on Mill St hosted by the BIA. However, at Monday’s council meeting, Council chose to simply ‘receive’ the information and no motion was passed to go ahead with the slide this year. Concerns about cost were brought forward and when asked what the costs were to run it last year, it was minimal…Doug Jones, Director of Public Works, estimated that it cost the Town approximately $2000-$2500 to host the event.
What do you think? Should they have gone ahead with the slide again this year?
Next Meetings
The next important dates you need to be aware of are Thursday, April 27th at 7pm at ODSS for the public meeting and the next regular council meeting on Monday, May 8th at 7pm at Town Hall. And don’t forget to send you comments and questions to Council! My next blog post will review the information from Thursdays public meeting and I will post as many questions and answers as possible.
Ted Craig says
April 27, 2017 at 11:57 amI agree , it is disgusting that the OPS would hire a so called expert to question the validity of the numbers presented by the treasurer. No surprise that they are defending their own position on this really. But thier “service” costs twice as much as an equivalent option. There is no question that the OPP can provide the service for MILLIONS OF DOLLARS LESS per year. Money that could be used to provide other much needed services or , god forbid , lower the tax burden on taxpayers.
IT IS , All about the money.!
Political Watchdog of Orangeville says
April 28, 2017 at 11:29 amI’m not quite sure where the millions of dollars are being saved that some members of council are convinced of, when it was confirmed last night that the OPP will not support the treasurer’s savings (half the cost as quoted by the treasurer). The person providing the service should be the one’s telling us the price, not someone else.
It’s like real estate. You are buying a house. I’m selling the house. Your friend tells you that you will pay XYZ for the house. He has experience in as he has been looking at the market through MLS (online). Yet, he is not the one selling the house. What do you think will happen here. Will you get your friends price, or the sellers?
The message last night at the public meeting is that citizens know what they want, they want OPS.
Council needs to take note. Your community is telling you what they want.
Truth Seeker says
April 28, 2017 at 11:54 amActually you’re 100% wrong. It’s nothing like buying a house.
OPP has said that the 4th year billing is based on the previous 3 years calls for service and that is why they cannot provide a quote.
It’s like going to an cell phone company who bills you for minutes used and saying what will my bill be for next month?
They can’t tell you. But Orangeville’s treasurer has looked at how many “minutes” have been used before and provided a reasonable estimate of what the cost can be expected to be.
Political Watchdog of Orangeville says
April 28, 2017 at 5:13 pmHow can the OPP not tell us what the fourth year would be, when they are a large Provincial organization that Police over 300 municipalities? Would they not have a data bank? If it’s because they are seeing what the ‘minutes’ are, than how can the Orangeville treasurer stand up in the public and tell people we will save 4.5 million (which the OPP said they cannot do)?
Something does not smell right.
Lot’s of unanswered questions and mis-information circulating on social media.
This decision needs to be made by the people through a referendum. Not council.
Truth Seeker says
April 29, 2017 at 4:19 pmEvery community is different. If you had been listening to the answers at the public forum You would have heard that each municipality shares a percentage of the costs based on their calls for service.
OPP won’t give an exact number because they cannot do so until the data collected in Orangeville during the transitional contract has been analyzed. As part of a business contract that would be foolish.
The treasurer however can and did make an estimate because he is not bound by the figure he gives. However that does nothing to diminish the accuracy of his numbers and calculations.
I will agree that there are lots of unanswered questions and misinformation. It’s unfortunate that the OPS won’t allow those who know the most to comment and provide accurate information.
sylvia bradley says
April 29, 2017 at 10:05 amJust some observations. The crowd at the Information Session was quite small – less than 100. Most of those in attendance were OPS staff and families as well as Town staff and Councillors. Maybe 25% present were residents (probably a stretch). So that tells us a few things. Most of Orangeville is not engaged in the OPS/OPP issue and most of the speakers (probably 10+) were there to question the OPP. Very few questions were posed to OPS. Hopefully the rest of town was watching on Rogers live. There is a tremendous amount of information out on this issue and it is complex. Remember the Treasurer built in approx. $1M in contingencies into the analysis to address unknowns. Who knows, the costs could and should come in less than estimated. One of the funding factors is crime rate of which O”Ville is one of the lowest in Ontario.
Political Watchdog of Orangeville says
April 30, 2017 at 7:57 amIt’s funny how the language is changing. I mean, in the beginning when the treasurer stood up social media blew up that we would be saving 4.5 million. Then some people in the community jumped on that bandwagon, even some councillors. Now it’s an ‘estimate’. They realize what they have done, and are trying to back away from being held accountable. Someone has to be held accountable for that. If that was an ‘estimate’, than why is not being communicated that way? Whether it be the council or media. Someone has to be accountable.
Regarding the OPP cost from above. Agree with Truth Seeker in that they spread it across the municipalities. That being said, if a municipality has a higher cost of policing Orangeville could absorb it (and vice versa). The OPP also highlighted that the cost they provide is base service. Not enhancements. Some examples of enhancements include extra calls for cars etc. So Orangeville, don’t be crazy and have lot’s of issues. It will cost us more money.
Truth seeker, why would you make the comment “It’s unfortunate that the OPS won’t allow those who know the most to comment and provide accurate information.” Why would you make such a statement? What is your relationship with OPS? That is an odd statement to make.
Ms. Bradley. In my humble opinion, you are very unprofessional. To make the following statement “The crowd at the Information Session was quite small – less than 100. Most of those in attendance were OPS staff and families as well as Town staff and Councillors. Maybe 25% present were residents (probably a stretch). So that tells us a few things. Most of Orangeville is not engaged in the OPS/OPP issue and most of the speakers (probably 10+) were there to question the OPP.”
The crowd was quite small? Mostly staff and families of OPS? These are members of YOUR community. VOTERS of your community. Of course they would be present. Why wouldn’t they? What should have been noticed is that the pro- OPP people where slim to none. That say’s the community does not want change now. Further, the OPP really messed up the presentation. No clear, consistent answers.
Finally, in one of your comments Ms. Bradley “For the last couple of years, OPS has had a 0% increase and has returned a surplus to the Town. This has been accomplished by not hiring a Deputy and other unfilled vacancies.” That is incorrect. Did you not listen to the chief at the public meeting? He explained some of the reasons why. Further, I bumped into the chief yesterday at a community event (yes he is in the community) and asked him if it’s because of not hiring a deputy.
More to it. I don’t know where you got this from, but I suggest you sit down with the chief and learn about the OPS budget. And not hear it from ‘town staff’ (which I presume you are getting it from, and we all know how good there ‘estimates’ are when the OPP cannot stand by them).
That being said, it proves my comment from above. The town needs to decide this through a referendum. Not this council. They clearly are not looking out for the communities best interest.
sylvia bradley says
April 30, 2017 at 1:04 pmAll multiyear budgets are estimates based on the available data – both OPP and OPS. No guarantee with either but methodology was verified by BDO. We already pay for OPP through our provincial taxes and the amount billed to municipalities is on a cost recovery basis. Of the approx. total $1 Billion OPP cost, municipalities pick up about $400M so we’re already paying from a different pocket but not receiving direct service. I fully understand that some of the OPS in attendance are residents of Orangeville yet some are not. I’ve been trying to get info from the OPS Board (town staff cannot speak to the OPS budget since it was prepared by OPS) on specific questions. Typically when an election takes place approx. 30%+ come out so that decision would be made by the minority. Both OPS and OPP provide excellent professional service. It just depends on how much we want to pay for it.
Leo Landriault says
April 28, 2017 at 12:49 pmIf anyone thinks that the OPS… is not ripping off the tax payers of Orangeville, than these people
have money to “BURN” However asking our town representatives to knuckle under each time OPS makes unrealistic demands for more and more money, than any other community in the province is not justified. Wake up Orangeville tax payers and fight to gain control over our out of control ….”TAXES”
OPP services would be very cost effective compare to our.now over priced Ops service.
If you are one how feels, that we are already over taxed here in Orangeville than send the message to
council demanding to end the bleeding with…. OPS demands .!
Political Watchdog of Orangeville says
April 28, 2017 at 5:18 pmThis council has also not saved us money. Since they took power, how much money have they saved?
The OPS has saved the taxpayers money. It was presented last night at the meeting.
Has other departments in Orangeville went down? Taxpayers need to ask that question. If not, there is a place to start.
I feel that next budget, each department should show the last 4 years to the Public and we can see if it went down or up. If it went up, why?
sylvia bradley says
April 29, 2017 at 11:11 amFor the last couple of years, OPS has had a 0% increase and has returned a surplus to the Town. This has been accomplished by not hiring a Deputy and other unfilled vacancies. The budget was prepared with all those salaries included but not spent therefore a surplus. Once the full complement is hired, the surplus will disappear and the 5 year budget is projecting annual increases.
If anyone is interested in the town budgets, they are available to the public.
Political Watchdog of Orangeville says
April 30, 2017 at 4:03 pmI am not able to reply to your response above, so I will here.
BDO also went onto say in the report “we recommend a further meeting and discussion with the OPP”. That is where the uncertainty lies. What is this meeting about? Do they need clarity? Is there information gaps? That is an interesting end to a recommendation.
To say no guarantees, and some are admitting it’s an ‘estimate’ – than why are statements being made on how we will save money?
I’m confused on this statement. Can you explain it more? “Of the approx. total $1 Billion OPP cost, municipalities pick up about $400M so we’re already paying from a different pocket but not receiving direct service.” I’ve heard that OPP does not bill municipalities (ie. forensics). The Chief would be the one to clarify that one.
With the statement “Typically when an election takes place approx. 30%+ come out so that decision would be made by the minority.” The community does not want an election. A referendum. Any member of council can ask for one. If people don’t exercise there franchise to vote, don’t complain.
I agree with you in that both the OPS and OPP are excellent services. No question.
How much we have to pay? What have you (and council) done to control our existing taxes in which you can control to date? That is the question that needs to be reviewed.
sylvia bradley says
May 2, 2017 at 5:05 pmThe OPP has developed a simpler tool to explain the costing formula and we will be inviting them back to present that to us and the community will have access to that info.
All budgets are estimates. Your personal budget is an estimate and based on known facts. The fact that 85% of all Ont. municipalities are charged the average or less than average cost should assure you that our estimates are quite valid given that our crime rate is very low. I might add that OPP charges for calls to service where OPS gathers data on “occurances’ which is not the same thing. I’m meeting with OPS to find out exactly what that means but i suspect that all those occurances would not be billable by OPP. I also wonder about why there is an increase in occurances yet a decrease in the crime rate.
OPP services all of Ontario and 60% of that is paid through our provincial taxes. That covers things like legal fees, specialty services, remote coverage, head office, etc. The amount they charge municipalities is based on their formula of a base cost, plus calls for service, plus court duties and overtime. All the other costs are uploaded to the province. So if we have another million dollar problem, those legal costs are uploaded to the province and the taxpayers of Orangeville will not be paying that like we did in the past by raising taxes.
OPP currently does not charge a fee when they come into a community to help out, however, they have the right to do so. That is another unknown with OPS and again an estimate since they don’t know if that practice will change.
i would expect approx the same number of people coming out for a referendum as an election and don’t forget elections costs a lot of money so referendums, if done, are usually done at the same time as an election.
There are few ways to reduce costs without reducing services. I made a recommendation to close Tony Rose pool due to poor utilization. That caused some citizens concern and no other councillor supported that idea. We have capacity at Alder. I don’t know if I stated this before, but to save $4.5M would require closing both arenas and all the parks. There will never be another opportunity like this.
Concerned ratepayer says
April 28, 2017 at 10:58 pmObjectively, analytically, realistically, there is no doubt that the clear choice is OPP. What’s disturbing is that our elected representatives have difficulty in acknowledging this fact. Economies of scale, synergy and the elimination of redundant positions lead to a substantial savings for the citizens of Orangeville. There is no grey area, it’s a clear cut decision. Anyone that argues otherwise clearly has a vested interest.